Monday 30 April 2012

Ever thought a lot about your plumbing?

And no, I don't mean your personal plumbing, I mean the pipes that carry the water in and out of your house.

The past few weeks have had me thinking a fair bit about plumbing (amongst many other things). From the time when I heard that the City of Vancouver was giving us the opportunity to upgrade our own sewer and water pipelines to the tune of $13,000, to the decisions about PEX vs. copper vs. ? and ABS vs. PVC vs. Cast iron, etc., there are a lot of things to consider when it comes to simple "pipes". So what have I learned from all of that? Well a  few things:

1) PEX, for those of you who don't know, is "cross linked" (thus the "X") high density polyethylene (HDPE, thus the "PE") or for those of us in the realm of "simple knowledge", a #2 on your recyclables. It is food grade and generally considered safe, but there seems to be some level of discomfort in the literature out there as to whether or not it is carcinogenic or not. California had a long, disputed battle between different parties on the PEX front as PEX was not allowed in the State's plumbing until 2009. While the conclusion of the debate was that it posed no significant health risks, there is still some debate on the topic and the long-term health effects of PEX piping are still somewhat unknown: http://www.builderonline.com/legislation/californias-pex-battle-continues.aspx While it's more than likely safe, and has been used in Europe for decades, there are many confounding factors, such as whether it is exposed to UV (which degrades the plastic...which makes you wonder about #2 bottles kept out in sunlight!?) or whether the plastic is exposed to chlorine (which most water supplies are).  PEX also emits VOCs and can add strange taste to water (apparently). On the plus side, it's easy to install, and generally has lowered embodied energy and can even be colour coded. And I've been drinking from it for the past 4 years (maybe longer?). So...hard to say...but what are the alternatives?

A picture of PEX tubing (blue for cold water, red for hot water!)


Well - the "tried and tested" answer is copper. Naturally antibacterial, copper has been used in houses for a long time and seems to be safe when used with non-leaded solders (plus can be recycled). However, copper does have significant impacts in terms of its mining (albeit so too does oil!), is more expensive, and copper toxicity can exist.

Option #3 is to use polypropelene (PP, or a #5 on your recyclables). PP is more temperature resistant than PEX, can be recycled and altogether seems like a safer plastic. It has a fair bit going for it and is a contender at this point, though one must it into context in a world FILLED with plastics (and who knows what is in other parts of the water system, right?).

Green Building Advisor - perhaps the best resource I've found in my house journey thus far - has some good discussions on this, but the conclusion is definitively inconclusive!
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/qa-spotlight/how-safe-pex-tubing
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/community/forum/green-products-and-materials/18789/pex-tubing


All said and done...I think I'm going to install a carbon block water filter in our kitchen which should help to cut out all of the nasties in whatever water we have. Something like this.

PVC is another material (#3 on your recyclables) which is generally nasty stuff (to manufacture, it offgases VOCs, etc.) I've made the decision to try to cut it out of the house wherever possible. It's one of the "banned" substances in the Living Building Challenge, and those behind the LBC tend to be out ahead of the curve and I trust them to be on things like this. It's nasty to produce, it offgases a lot (which affects indoor air quality) and just is a product that should be eliminated from human use in my opinion. So, we're trying to get rid of it...and instead using....another plastic! ABS, or Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene or (C8H8)x· (C4H6)y·(C3H3N)z) is another thermoplastic...pretty benign except (like the rest of them) when burned. 


Oh - and apparently cast iron is way quieter for flushing toilets (albeit more expensive).


Lastly - have found this gal on the North Shore who was recommended to me by the mechanical company that we're likely to go with (Westwood Mechanical).


Other plumbing related notes: will likely do a Navien CH-240 Combi boiler (which in english means that I will be using a combined "boiler/hot water tank" system that provides the house's hot water for domestic use as well as in-floor radiant systems, all in a nice little box (no separate hot water tank, no boiler). It's space efficient, energy efficient, and if you're so inclined, allows you to have unlimited hot water showers (very non-green of me to say). We considered a Viessmann Vitoden 100 system (German) with an on-demand hot water attachment, but it's an extra $3000 and bang-for-your-buck, you're better off with the Navien (Korean...hey, their cars are beating out BMWs and VWs these days as well!). We're also looking into using radiant hydronic baseboard heat for the upper level of the house which actually is hidden in standard baseboards (no ugly radiators, plus its radiant versus convective heat). I also considered an air-to-liquid heat pump, but opted against it in the end...think I might have mentioned this before....since my mind is fading, I better call it quits for tonight.

6 comments:

  1. Two benefits of PEX over copper: 1) Much easier to install with a lot less need for joints. You can literally have a single un-seamed pipe form the basement manifold all the way to each fixture as it can be bent around corners. 2) It is predicted to have a much longer life span than copper which further lowers its embodied energy over copper.

    Having re-plumbed my house in the last 3 years, yes the water does taste off and has a smell for the first few months. But by the end of the first year, that was a distant memory.

    ReplyDelete
  2. thanks for your blog - looks like you may already be living in your new house by now. We're at this stage of construction now, pondering the ?evils of PEX. Just wondering - why isn't PP (Recycleable #5) a more popular choice for at least the incoming water supply? did you end up using PEX? or PP? and why?
    also - did you end up getting a Navien? does it supply sufficient hot water for you?

    ReplyDelete
  3. Indeed I am living in the place now...post July I ran out of steam to maintain the blog as the house swallowed me! At some point I hope to post all of the remaining pieces.

    But - to your questions:
    - While I don't formally know the answer to your question on popularity of PP over PEX, my hunch would be cost. Most things in the world of building are guided by efficiency and price, as opposed to good logic. My guess is that PEX also has better characteristics and is generally deemed safe, so most people don't question it further than that.
    - Yes, I did end up just going with PEX. The array of fights that I had in trying to keep the building "green" simply overwhelmed me and I had to pick and choose my battles. The PEX one was one I gave in on based on the variety of information that's out there.
    - I do admit that the water out of a couple of the lines (that I don't use that frequently) does taste a bit funny, but I try not to think about it and figure it will fade in time.

    re: Navien
    - Yes, I did end up doing the combi Navien. Yes, it supplies sufficient hot water all around.
    - We kept the supply run lines pretty short and the "wait time" isn't that much different from my old hot water tank (maybe 10 seconds at worst)
    - My only real issue is that sometimes the temperature fluxes a little bit, but it's not very much and overall I've been pretty happy with it. That said, I'd consider an air-source heat pump (or GSHP) if you can afford it. It was just too pricey for me.

    Hope that helps!
    Alexis

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks very much for the reply!! We're meeting up with our contractor in half an hour (!) to finalize plumbing issues - i might ask him if we can run the main kitchen in-lines in PP - it's right above the mechanical room so perhaps cost is just a marginal issue, but like you said, probably the "inertia" is a bigger hurdle. The moment I first asked him about PEX vs alternatives he already tried to shoot it down.... and he's so far (otherwise) always been a "yes can do" type of contractor!

      The architect is pushing for us to have a heat pump - all in all will be a $10k difference and I'm finding the cost difference hard to justify outside of altruistic reasons (being green, etc) - it will take approx 200 months of energy bills to break even. Also, we will only get a 80 gallon water tank and with 4 showers and 1 bathtub in the house, i worry that 80 gallons won't be enough and wanna consider an additional Navien... but i don't think we can afford both a heat pump AND a Navien :-(

      I'll try not to get swallowed by the house too, urgh!!! We're now having to finalize windows, electrical, mechanical AND plumbing all within 2 weeks. I need 48 hours a day!!!

      thanks for your help!

      Delete
  4. So - a few comments to your post...only because I've lived in your shoes!

    1) I'd press the plumber (or any other trade for that matter) for them to explain their logic beyond "that's how it's always done" (because most of the time they've simply 'always been doing it wrong'). Sometimes there is good logic behind their thinking, and worth taking advantage of, but sometimes (more often than I care to count), it's just a matter of "its always done that way".

    2) re: the cost-benefit calculation - yep - I think you're probably correct on the calculations, though it depends on what numbers you use for natural gas prices over the next 10 years. But smart money (in my opinion at least!), given the abundance in BC, would probably suggest that NG prices aren't going to skyrocket in the next few years. But from a strictly "green" angle - indeed the ASHP/GSHP is definitely the winner. There are cheaper units out there that can serve only domestic hot water (not the combi you'd be talking about), but again, doubt it would be cost effective.

    3) Yes, house swallowing...it will happen...and then happen again. It's more a matter of how you recover from it rather than trying to avoid it happening!

    A few other "lessons learned"
    - windows: consider the triple glazing if you're going green because it doesn't actually add that much to the price (except for tempered glass where its a healthy chunk more). Probably pretty good on a cost effectiveness basis since it nearly doubles the U/R value of your windows.
    - electrical: use LEDs (but get good quality ones and look into it); use sealed cans if you're using potlights - my electricians were on that one and it created a nightmare for me.
    - happy to let you know about all of our various decisions on appliances, where we spent/didn't spend that were good/bad decisions, fixtures, etc.

    Feel free to fire me an email at any point: alexis.j.morgan gmail com

    ReplyDelete
  5. Hi, it's me again. We're STILL dealing with plumbing (LOL - 5 month delay caused by windows...). So it's now moment of truth for piping. I pushed (yet again) for GC and plumber to skip PEX in certain strategic locations in the house, and plumber now suggest Aquatherm http://www.aquatherm.com/overview-of-the-aquatherm-greenpipe-system Have you come across this in your research? thanks. (baldtomato)

    ReplyDelete